Boicote ao OpenGL
- Iniciador de Tópicos gargwlas
- Data de Início
Quem diria, o Carmack está contente em trabalhar com D3Dx9 e pensa seriamente no PC em trabalhar só com DX... 
hjesus: :lol:
Abaixo a opinião de alguns desenvolvedores de peso...
Abraço
http://www.beyond3d.com/
hjesus: :lol: Abaixo a opinião de alguns desenvolvedores de peso...
Abraço
http://www.beyond3d.com/
Could you explain a few of the technical reasons for sticking with OGL instead of D3D9? Specifically with your previous mentions of considering moving to D3D because of shadow buffers, and the lateness of a better render-to-texture extension.
John Carmack, id Software - "I'm happy working with D3D9 on the Xbox 360 platform. We did seriously consider going D3D only on the PC, but there are still some mitigating factors. OGL will probably still be slightly higher performance on the PC pre-longhorn. ATI and Nvidia both still like the idea of being able to do more focused optimization work in OGL. We also still care about the Mac and Linux platforms."
What led you guys to give up OGL in favour of D3D? Any specific advantages D3D9 gives you over, say, OGL 1.5+? Considering that Serious Sam 2 is a TWIMTBP game and with nVidia's slight performance lead in most OGL games, wouldn't they prefer if you went to OGL instead?
Dean Sekulic, CroTeam - "Who says we gave up on OGL? We just use D3D as our primary API. Yes, we fully support OpenGL (although we haven't implemented render-to-texture for it, yet). We decided to have it, because of:
a) "Blackmailing" IHVs to make better drivers; that way you can say: "Look, it works in OpenGL and not in Direct3D (or vice-versa)!"
b) portability (linux client), and
c) I love it!
However, we decided to go for Direct3D as primary API because it has came so close to OpenGL in it's ease-of-use. Yes, there are some glitches, but unfortunately OpenGL has somewhat bigger glitches. It's just that the ARB can be too slow in adopting some features that are common for Direct3D. For example, StretchRect() support; OpenGL still doesn't have it (has only CopyRects() which could be insufficient when it comes to performance
of post-processing effects!), and on top of that, only recently they made a decent extension for render-to-texture functionality. Shame, indeed."
So, although I'm an OpenGL fan, I have to say that Direct3D is currently one (small) step ahead. And the drivers for Direct3D are generally better, except in nVidia case - they have great drivers for both D3D and OGL! (We get ~5% higher frame rate under OpenGL on NV 6000 and 7000 series). ATi, on the other hand, have some serious issues, and not only with performance; just simple things, like conformance with some OpenGL extension they
"support".
As for Microsoft's "brilliant" idea to slowly kill OpenGL by layering it on top of Direct3D API... Well, that's definately unfair play in my book, and I'm totally against it!!! (Where's the petition?! Where do I need to sign?
Unreal Engine 3's remarkably large portion of the licensee market will create a lot of leverage in the near future. With this in mind, I was wondering if UE3 will support OGL at all. With the advent of GLSL and OGL 1.5+, what are the most important advantages D3D9 gives you?
Tim Sweeney, Epic Games - "Our approach to Direct3D and OpenGL isn't really changing in this generation. OpenGL is now the standard graphics library for PlayStation 3, so we have an implementation up and running already, and we'll support OpenGL wholeheartedly on all platforms where it's the primary graphics API. On Windows, we focus all of our optimization and feature effort on Direct3D, since that's the best supported API on Windows that all GPU vendors focus on. In the UE2 we implemented OpenGL to make porting to Mac/Linux easier, and released it unsupported as a pet project. Whether we'll release it with UE3 is an open question -- it's definitely not a high priority on our minds right now."
Idex
Active Member
A M$ ja vem boicotando o OpenGL faz muito, muito tempo. Eles não atualizam os DLLs de OpenGL desde 1996, quando tava na versão 1.1 Até agora era fácil contornar esse problema, um programa que prescisava de uma versão mais nova podia usar os DLLs dos drivers diretamente, mas não sei se vai continuar sendo assim fácil no Vista. Mas enquanto os drivers suportarem OpenGL acho que a M$ não pode fazer muita coisa.
Eu até gosto do OpenGL, mas sinceramente, um amigo meu que programa alguma coisa, vive falando sobre como é complicado e chato fazer quaisquer coisas em OpenGL, Direct-3d é pra ser super mais simples, então acho que algum dia vamos precisar nos livrar do que é obsoleto, pelo bem de todos.
Muitos não devem ter gostado de deixar de lado os Hds IDE ou os Gabinete AT ou mouse de bolinha, enfim.... Windows Vista vai ser uma bosta, mas eu não vou ser muito nostalgico com relação ao Opengl, morreu, morreu.
Muitos não devem ter gostado de deixar de lado os Hds IDE ou os Gabinete AT ou mouse de bolinha, enfim.... Windows Vista vai ser uma bosta, mas eu não vou ser muito nostalgico com relação ao Opengl, morreu, morreu.
Terror_inc disse:
pra quem é avançado na area prefere OGL... coisa da M$ sempre são mais amigaveis, mas não quer dizer que é melhor
quanto ao Carmack, depois de doom3 onde cada dia ele tava do lado de uma empresa esta claro que tem uma $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (pequena
) rolando.
D3lta disse:Andei fazendo uns estudos de oGL e DX, mas percebi que elas são muito baixo níveis, dificil para um programador novato aprender de imediato. Tanto que optei por APIs mais de alto nivel como OGRE. Quem sabe em breve, eu lance uma Demoscene...
hehe legal.... eu do toda a força
:xtracool:
Quantos formatos a M$ tentou monopolizar sem sucesso ? cade o wma, ou wmv e cada vez que ela fáz isso recebe um **** processo ela não pode simplesmente boicotar um linguagem de programação assim se ela não atualiza as DLL´s alguém fará isso.
Nunca vi uma API tão complexa e tão boa uanto o openGL a não ser a GLIDE que é a mesma API só que codigo proprietario.
E daí que o Carmack ta se vendendo ?
Outros aparecerão teremos muitos outros eroes, me lembro quando foi lançado Quake 2 em Opengl em 1997 aquilo era outro mundo muito nmelhor que DX e até o o openGL é melhor se a ATI e M$ tão fazendo caca azar o deles a intel que tb váh se internar.
Vamos usar placas nVidia com processadores AMD em sistemas GPL, alguns games estão usando até uma api de som open source o open AL.
Más é esperar para ver no que vai dar.
Nunca vi uma API tão complexa e tão boa uanto o openGL a não ser a GLIDE que é a mesma API só que codigo proprietario.
E daí que o Carmack ta se vendendo ?
Outros aparecerão teremos muitos outros eroes, me lembro quando foi lançado Quake 2 em Opengl em 1997 aquilo era outro mundo muito nmelhor que DX e até o o openGL é melhor se a ATI e M$ tão fazendo caca azar o deles a intel que tb váh se internar.
Vamos usar placas nVidia com processadores AMD em sistemas GPL, alguns games estão usando até uma api de som open source o open AL.
Más é esperar para ver no que vai dar.
Pra enriquecer a discusão trago à baila 3 posicionamentos FERAS, em inglês, sobre essa polêmica:
Could you explain a few of the technical reasons for sticking with OGL instead of D3D9? Specifically with your previous mentions of considering moving to D3D because of shadow buffers, and the lateness of a better render-to-texture extension.
John Carmack, id Software - "I'm happy working with D3D9 on the Xbox 360 platform. We did seriously consider going D3D only on the PC, but there are still some mitigating factors. OGL will probably still be slightly higher performance on the PC pre-longhorn. ATI and Nvidia both still like the idea of being able to do more focused optimization work in OGL. We also still care about the Mac and Linux platforms."
What led you guys to give up OGL in favour of D3D? Any specific advantages D3D9 gives you over, say, OGL 1.5+? Considering that Serious Sam 2 is a TWIMTBP game and with nVidia's slight performance lead in most OGL games, wouldn't they prefer if you went to OGL instead?
Dean Sekulic, CroTeam - "Who says we gave up on OGL? We just use D3D as our primary API. Yes, we fully support OpenGL (although we haven't implemented render-to-texture for it, yet). We decided to have it, because of:
a) "Blackmailing" IHVs to make better drivers; that way you can say: "Look, it works in OpenGL and not in Direct3D (or vice-versa)!"
b) portability (linux client), and
c) I love it!
However, we decided to go for Direct3D as primary API because it has came so close to OpenGL in it's ease-of-use. Yes, there are some glitches, but unfortunately OpenGL has somewhat bigger glitches. It's just that the ARB can be too slow in adopting some features that are common for Direct3D. For example, StretchRect() support; OpenGL still doesn't have it (has only CopyRects() which could be insufficient when it comes to performance
of post-processing effects!), and on top of that, only recently they made a decent extension for render-to-texture functionality. Shame, indeed."
So, although I'm an OpenGL fan, I have to say that Direct3D is currently one (small) step ahead. And the drivers for Direct3D are generally better, except in nVidia case - they have great drivers for both D3D and OGL! (We get ~5% higher frame rate under OpenGL on NV 6000 and 7000 series). ATi, on the other hand, have some serious issues, and not only with performance; just simple things, like conformance with some OpenGL extension they
"support".
As for Microsoft's "brilliant" idea to slowly kill OpenGL by layering it on top of Direct3D API... Well, that's definately unfair play in my book, and I'm totally against it!!! (Where's the petition?! Where do I need to sign?
Unreal Engine 3's remarkably large portion of the licensee market will create a lot of leverage in the near future. With this in mind, I was wondering if UE3 will support OGL at all. With the advent of GLSL and OGL 1.5+, what are the most important advantages D3D9 gives you?
Tim Sweeney, Epic Games - "Our approach to Direct3D and OpenGL isn't really changing in this generation. OpenGL is now the standard graphics library for PlayStation 3, so we have an implementation up and running already, and we'll support OpenGL wholeheartedly on all platforms where it's the primary graphics API. On Windows, we focus all of our optimization and feature effort on Direct3D, since that's the best supported API on Windows that all GPU vendors focus on. In the UE2 we implemented OpenGL to make porting to Mac/Linux easier, and released it unsupported as a pet project. Whether we'll release it with UE3 is an open question -- it's definitely not a high priority on our minds right now."
Abraços.
Could you explain a few of the technical reasons for sticking with OGL instead of D3D9? Specifically with your previous mentions of considering moving to D3D because of shadow buffers, and the lateness of a better render-to-texture extension.
John Carmack, id Software - "I'm happy working with D3D9 on the Xbox 360 platform. We did seriously consider going D3D only on the PC, but there are still some mitigating factors. OGL will probably still be slightly higher performance on the PC pre-longhorn. ATI and Nvidia both still like the idea of being able to do more focused optimization work in OGL. We also still care about the Mac and Linux platforms."
What led you guys to give up OGL in favour of D3D? Any specific advantages D3D9 gives you over, say, OGL 1.5+? Considering that Serious Sam 2 is a TWIMTBP game and with nVidia's slight performance lead in most OGL games, wouldn't they prefer if you went to OGL instead?
Dean Sekulic, CroTeam - "Who says we gave up on OGL? We just use D3D as our primary API. Yes, we fully support OpenGL (although we haven't implemented render-to-texture for it, yet). We decided to have it, because of:
a) "Blackmailing" IHVs to make better drivers; that way you can say: "Look, it works in OpenGL and not in Direct3D (or vice-versa)!"
b) portability (linux client), and
c) I love it!
However, we decided to go for Direct3D as primary API because it has came so close to OpenGL in it's ease-of-use. Yes, there are some glitches, but unfortunately OpenGL has somewhat bigger glitches. It's just that the ARB can be too slow in adopting some features that are common for Direct3D. For example, StretchRect() support; OpenGL still doesn't have it (has only CopyRects() which could be insufficient when it comes to performance
of post-processing effects!), and on top of that, only recently they made a decent extension for render-to-texture functionality. Shame, indeed."
So, although I'm an OpenGL fan, I have to say that Direct3D is currently one (small) step ahead. And the drivers for Direct3D are generally better, except in nVidia case - they have great drivers for both D3D and OGL! (We get ~5% higher frame rate under OpenGL on NV 6000 and 7000 series). ATi, on the other hand, have some serious issues, and not only with performance; just simple things, like conformance with some OpenGL extension they
"support".
As for Microsoft's "brilliant" idea to slowly kill OpenGL by layering it on top of Direct3D API... Well, that's definately unfair play in my book, and I'm totally against it!!! (Where's the petition?! Where do I need to sign?
Unreal Engine 3's remarkably large portion of the licensee market will create a lot of leverage in the near future. With this in mind, I was wondering if UE3 will support OGL at all. With the advent of GLSL and OGL 1.5+, what are the most important advantages D3D9 gives you?
Tim Sweeney, Epic Games - "Our approach to Direct3D and OpenGL isn't really changing in this generation. OpenGL is now the standard graphics library for PlayStation 3, so we have an implementation up and running already, and we'll support OpenGL wholeheartedly on all platforms where it's the primary graphics API. On Windows, we focus all of our optimization and feature effort on Direct3D, since that's the best supported API on Windows that all GPU vendors focus on. In the UE2 we implemented OpenGL to make porting to Mac/Linux easier, and released it unsupported as a pet project. Whether we'll release it with UE3 is an open question -- it's definitely not a high priority on our minds right now."
Abraços.
Minha empreitada começará em breve, hehehehe....PauloX disse:
Gosto das placas Nvidia pois para mim elas tem um bom desempenho no OGL.
Sou completamento leigo quanto ao LINUX, mas já tomei uma decisão: vou tentar aprender e consequentemente darei prioridade p/ jogos e programas que rodem neste SO.
Espero que mais pessoas tomem esta mesma decisão.
Ps. Se alguém tiver a paciencia de ajudar nesta empreitada agradeço!
Abraço a todos
Paulo
Já baixei os 4 CDs do Fedora Core 4 mais 650MB de atualizações (os caras lançam melhorias de tudo todos os dias!).
Já peguei dos drivers de quase todos os meus periféricos e só falta mais alguns softwares (gratuitos é claro
) que substituam os atuais que uso no Windows....Acredito que dentro em breve conseguirei escapara das garras da Micro$oft, hehehehe :twisted: